MR. HEWITT: Hello. Welcome to Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage. Mr. Secretary, welcome to the Hugh Hewitt Show. Great to have you.
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Thank you, Mr. Hewitt. Good to be with you.
MR. HEWITT: The prestige newspapers, as I go through them this morning, all seem dismissive of yesterday's transfer of sovereignty in Baghdad, as though it were not a major event. How significant was the handover yesterday?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: First of all, what matters is what people in Baghdad and Iraq at large think, and they seem to think it was a significant, indeed a momentous, day. Secondarily, the people in the region, the Saudis, the Kuwaitis, et cetera, found it a momentous day. In fact, Kuwait reestablished relations with Iraq immediately, after 14 years.
MR. HEWITT: Now, why then is our media so intent on running it down? The Los Angeles Times, for example, calling it "inauguration on the run," the Post, the New York Times, all sort of quibbling with the details.
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Mr. Hewitt, it seems to me this is like a perversion of or a political Gresham's Law. Gresham's Law says that bad money drives good money out of the marketplace, and I think bad news drives good news out of the political marketplace. I think that's what you're seeing.
MR. HEWITT: Now let's get to the more important questions. Victor Davis Hanson wrote yesterday that the key, of course, will be for the United States to stay engaged, as it did in Korea and the Balkans, and not flee, as it did in Vietnam circa 1974 to '75. Mr. Secretary, are we going to sticking there?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Damn right.
MR. HEWITT: For as long as it takes?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: That's what the President says. He's got the courage, he's got the patience and we've got the will. We're going to be a respectful and supportive friend of Iraq. They deserve nothing less from the United States and the world at large.
MR. HEWITT: Now, the new Prime Minister, Mr. Allawi, has come under some attack, especially Seymour Hersch in the latest New Yorker article has leveled both barrels at him. Why the attack on Allawi and what's your assessment of his skills at this point?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: I find him a very good political operative. I know him fairly well. He's a standup, courageous man, and I think that's what people ought to focus on. This is a guy who's survived a terrible assassination attempt, whose poor wife has been hospitalized because of the trauma of those repeated attempts, and here's a guy that's standing up. That's what we ought to concentrate on.
MR. HEWITT: Harvard professor Michael Ignatieff wrote in The New York Times Magazine this weekend that the U.S. has done one thing well, get rid of Saddam, and everything else badly. How do you respond to a critique like that in the nation's most important newspaper?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: I tell you, it's not over. If we pull off, with the assistance of the international community and particularly the United Nations, an election in December or January of 2005, as we're trying to do, that will be one of the more monumental occurrences in the Middle East in several hundred years.
MR. HEWITT: Now, Zarqawi, of course, is dedicated to making that not happen. Any chance at accelerating the election timetable? If the interim government wanted to do so, would the United States support that?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: We would support, to the extent possible, anything the interim government wanted to do. But I think the United Nations has come to the conclusion that they're on as fast a track as the traffic will bear right now and it looks like December or January.
MR. HEWITT: Well, there's a new film out, Michael Moore's movie. Have you seen it yet, Mr. Secretary?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: No. Look, I work 24/7. (Laughter.)
MR. HEWITT: It's got a lot of shots at your boss, Secretary of State Powell, in it, one of them of his UN speech mentioning the connection between Saddam's Iraq and al-Qaida. Do you stand by that assessment that the Secretary delivered at the UN last year?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, he was disappointed in the quality of the intelligence that was provided to him, in retrospect, now that we know a lot more. But I certainly stand by the contention that al-Qaida and Saddam Hussein had had contacts. There is no question about it. I think the 9/11 Commission came out in the same place.
MR. HEWITT: Now on Friday, the Vice President told Fox News Neil Cavuto that the United States had once alerted Saddam to Zarqawi's presence in Baghdad using a third country as an intermediary, meaning that Saddam knew that Zarqawi was there and did nothing to stop him. Do you agree with the Vice President's assessment of that?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: My remembrance is we did pass word. Whether it got to Saddam Hussein, I can't say. I have no knowledge of that, but we passed word to the Iraqis.
MR. HEWITT: Any doubt in your mind that Zarqawi is an associate of al-Qaida?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: No.
MR. HEWITT: And any doubt in your mind he was operating in Baghdad prior to the war?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Whether he was in Baghdad or in the north, up in the area that Ansar-e Islam inhabited, I couldn't be quite clear on. I know he was up north and I just can't say if he was in Baghdad. Personally, I don't know.
MR. HEWITT: Mr. Secretary, do you think he's in Fallujah today?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: I think he was in Fallujah and he has been, and we've tried a couple of times to, in a precision way, take him out. I don't know where he is today.
MR. HEWITT: Now, if the interim government asks the United States to subdue Fallujah, would a offensive be reinitiated there?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, I think we'd be asking them to assist us in that. But I think, as a practical matter, it was the previous interim government that had talked us out of a more heavy-handed approach to Fallujah. So I don't think it's very likely.
MR. HEWITT: Is it getting worse there, or is it stable?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: No, I think there is a relative stability. But I think, as I understand it and look at some of the intelligence, time seems to be running out for the foreigners there. The information we get is the people are not very enthusiastic, or when put in another way, their enthusiasm is under control, for the foreigners who are causing so much trouble for Fallujah.
MR. HEWITT: Have the borders with Syria and Iran effectively been secured so that additional foreign insurgents cannot enter the country?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: No, Mr. Hewitt.
MR. HEWITT: And any -- how big is that problem?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: It's a big problem. It's getting a little better. In Syria, we've had more cooperation, a slight bit more with the Syrians lately, much less with the Iranians. There is also a bit of a problem from Saudi Arabia, though the Government of Saudi Arabia is, on this issue, working mightily to try to stop traffic both ways.
MR. HEWITT: Now, the new Iraqi security service, is it 10 percent, 50 percent, 75 percent there?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Oh, I don't know that I can put a percentage on it. It's in the process.
MR. HEWITT: All right. The Seymour Hersh article argues that the Israelis are in Kurdistan training the Kurds for use in counterinsurgency operations and for intervention in Iran. Any truth to that?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: No comment. You ought to ask the Israelis.
MR. HEWITT: All right. (Laughter.) We'll try that.
"Yellowcake" is back in the new, Mr. Secretary. The Financial Times reporting that, in fact, Saddam did try and purchase enriched uranium from African countries. Any comment on that report?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: No, I saw that yesterday in the FT, in my morning take. I had no more knowledge of it. We had, through our ambassadors several years ago, looked at it very closely and we found no information.
MR. HEWITT: All right. I want to go back to one more thing in the Michael Moore movie, since it's sort of dominating the thing.
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Sure.
MR. HEWITT: Michael Moore makes a big deal out of Prince Bandar dining at the White House on September 13th. (A) Is that unusual? (B) Is it a source of controversy?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: There is no controversy here. Prince Bandar is the Dean of the Ambassador Corps, well known and favorably known to us for years and years, to all of us. And so I find nothing unusual and nothing controversial in it.
MR. HEWITT: Are we winning the war on terror, Mr. Secretary?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: I think if you look at the international support, the international contributions to the war, you'd have to conclude we're winning. If you look at the UN Security Council resolution that's devoted to tying up terrorist financing, you'd have to conclude we're wining.
Having said that, this is going to be a long and a difficult slog the President has prepared the nation for and we just have to steel ourselves.
MR. HEWITT: Let's turn to where Mr. Powell is today. The Secretary is going to Sudan and will, allegedly, visit Darfur, the area where genocide is underway. What's the message he is taking to the Sudanese Government?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Knock it off, stop the Jingaweit from creating these terrible travesties and commissions of crimes on the people of the region, allow humanitarian and other assistance into the Darfur region. He'll be very strong. And he is going to Darfur; it's not allegedly.
MR. HEWITT: Now, would you explain to the American people that, at least, are listening that how serious the situation is in that area of Sudan?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, it's quite clear that thousands and thousands of people have been displaced from their homes where villages have been burned, and Arab villages which are right next door have been left untouched. So there certainly is a high degree of death and devastation that's being visited. Whether it is a genocide, in fact, is something that we discuss with other international partners.
Just, by the way, Secretary General Kofi Annan will be in Sudan. He's so concerned about the situation, as we are, and Secretary Powell and the Secretary General will be meeting to discuss it.
MR. HEWITT: Is there enough resolve in the international community that if Sudan does not bring these rogue militias under control that there would be an intervention there to prevent a Rwandan-style repeat massacre?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, I'll say from the United States point of view, if it's necessary, we will do all we can to try to build up the international resolve. We'd like to get this situation stopped and stabilized right now, so we don't have to go to an international stabilization force.
MR. HEWITT: Now, Sudan, of course, was the original nesting place for al-Qaida. Has it resolved to become a, you know, a normal member of the league of states now, or is it still something of a rogue regime?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, I don't think it's a rogue regime any longer, and I think the recent agreement to -- framework agreement for peace on the 20-year civil war between north and south is a significant event and it shows that the Government of Sudan wants to play a more responsible role. But I must say, their activities in failing to rail in the Jingaweit in Darfur throws some real questions, I think, into the minds of us in the United States and in the international community about how much of a responsible role they are willing to play.
MR. HEWITT: Mr. Secretary, we always seem to find where al-Qaida has nested after the fact and after they have been rousted. Where are you concerned that they are putting down tentacles now?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: That they're putting down tentacles in East Africa, possibly in the tri-border area of South America. We've worried for some time that they are trying to establish some grounding in Indonesia. But I must say, at least for Southeast Asia, the recent elections there show that the people, while embracing Islam, are eschewing fundamentalism and radicalism.
MR. HEWITT: Let's skip over to Southeast Asia and to the Korean Peninsula now, Mr. Secretary. The North Korean talks are underway. Allegedly, the North Koreans rejected the offer that the United States put on the table in the six-way contact. Is that correct?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: No, first of all, the talks are over, and I've spoken to our chief negotiator twice in the last two days about this matter. Both sides put new proposals forward. They indicated that they'd have to take these back to capitals and study them. Last night, I met with the Japanese to discuss these matters. We're very satisfied where we are. We think the North Koreans will owe us an answer. We've agreed to have talks, I believe it is, in September. So we're in pretty good shape.
MR. HEWITT: Do you expect that there will be any significant movement before the election? Or will the North Koreans wait it out to see if they are dealing with a President Bush or a President Kerry?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: You know what? You ought to ask that question in Pyongyang. I think they were a little surprised that we were showing some flexibility and the ball is in their court and we'll wait until they answer.
MR. HEWITT: What flexibility did we show, Mr. Secretary?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: We indicated that, as long as at the end of the day there is a complete dismantlement of the nuclear weapons program, we're prepared to be a little flexible on such things as delivery of energy and things of that nature.
MR. HEWITT: Is there any way that we could ever verify
what that regime would represent to us, given their longstanding
history of -- I mean, they were cheating before the deal was dry in '94.
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:
Yeah, they were cheating in '94, as you say, "before the deal was dry."
It would take a very intrusive regime to be able to have confidence in
the verification. But the fact that we have the five neighbors most
intimately involved with a common view toward the need to denuclearize
the Peninsula, I think you can have some degree of confidence that the
pressure won't be let up on the North Koreans.
MR. HEWITT: Is Beijing assisting us to the level that you would expect in this situation?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Yeah, Secretary Powell and the President have congratulated and expressed our gratitude to the leadership in Beijing. They are doing it for their reasons, it's in their interest, but nonetheless, it is a mighty labor and we're appreciative.
MR. HEWITT: Let's turn our attention to Iran where the other nuclear problem is unfolding. Is there a plan here for dealing with continued intransigence by the Iranians?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, certainly, and for instance, without going into too much depth, Secretary Powell recently met with Dr. El Baradei, the Director of the IAEA. We're working very closely with the EU Ministers, primarily the three we refer to as the EU3: the French, the Germans and the British. They were the ones who first brought forward an Iranian agreement to be forthcoming to the IAEA. And so we believe in the first instance the burden is on them to work it out.
MR. HEWITT: Would there be a move to the United Nations Security Council for sanctions if they do not make this happen quickly?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, I think, ultimately, we have another board meeting, first of all, in September, and another in November with the IAEA, and I think most probably the international community will want to keep the pressure on and the spotlight on Iran. Ultimately, we do have the option.
I'm a guy -- I don't know about you -- but I don't like to ask a question, the answer to which I do not already know. So I'd want to make sure that if we move to sanctions, we've got everybody onboard.
MR. HEWITT: Any doubt in your mind that Iran is attempting to develop nuclear weapons?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: No.
MR. HEWITT: And what kind of timeline do you think they have with success on the horizon? Are they six months away, a year away?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: No, I don't even care to speculate on that, Mr. Hewitt.
MR. HEWITT: All right. Let's turn, finally, to the Middle East, Mr. Secretary, to Israel and the Palestinians. Any chance of seeing any movement there other than unilateral Israeli action?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: The Gaza withdrawal suggested by Mr. Sharon, in our view, represents a real opportunity for some movement. And I know our Egyptian friends have been very involved with the Israelis, and in that process have reinvigorated their own relationship. I think if we keep the pressure on all parties to work out the withdrawal modalities, you could have for the first time a Palestinian entity which recovers 21 settlements in Gaza and four in the West Bank. You could make some real progress. And many, it appears to me, that many in the Palestinian community are saying, "Let's not keep saying, no, no, no, all the time. Maybe we ought to find a way to say yes."
MR. HEWITT: Is there a new leadership on the West Bank that the United States has confidence in?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, we have confidence in various members, individual members of the Palestinian Authority. But at the end of the day, come back to the question of how much authority that they're granted by Mr. Arafat, and if he's not going to let go, if he's not going to let the Palestinian Authority take the responsibility for everything from security to economics, then, as a body, you can't put much confidence in them.
MR. HEWITT: Is he still uniquely in control of the Palestinian establishment?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Yes.
MR. HEWITT: Final question is about politics. Mr. Secretary, you've been through a lot of presidential elections while in office. Has the rhetoric on the other side of the aisle in Congress surprised you as we run up to November?
I'm thinking of Senator Kennedy, and others, who have been talking about the next war will be a nuclear war, and things like that.
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: No, I must say, I worked on the Reagan-Carter campaign, and I've been through every presidential election since then, and it seems to me the closer we get, the hotter it gets and the more the rhetoric rises. So, no, it doesn't surprise me at all. I think it doesn't surprise the American people. They can see through this.
MR. HEWITT: I saw Ambassador Holbrooke on the O'Reilly program last night, again blasting President Bush and the Administration for failing to have sufficient international cooperation in Iraq. When you watch such things, what goes through your mind?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, first of all, I realize the duty of the opposition is to oppose, but he's had his opportunity and they, I think, failed to step up on some occasions. Rwanda does come to mind. My own view is we've got 31 other countries involved with us in Iraq. We've got a mighty coalition, as many as 60 involved, overall, in Afghanistan. We put together a really successful intervention in Liberia and in Haiti and I think history is going to judge us pretty well.
MR. HEWITT: Last question, Mr. Secretary. Any doubt in your mind that the Libyan disarmament was connected to the invasion of Iraq (inaudible)?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: I think it was one of several factors. That was one. Another was the fact that we had, along with some other international friends, stopped a shipment of nuclear-related materials. And I'm sure that got Colonel Qadhafi's attention. And at the end of the day, he had spent almost 20 years as a pariah state, and this attempt to develop nuclear weapons wasn't paying any dividends for him at all.
MR. HEWITT: Mr. Secretary, thank you so much for spending this much time with us. I very much appreciate it and look forward to doing it again.
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Thank you, Mr. Hewitt.
MR. HEWITT: Take care.
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