From: Open Source Professional List
Subject: OSPro-L April 97 #3
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 17:15:00 -0500
From: Gregory_Baker@f239.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Gregory Baker)
Subject: April 1997 Ospro-l Topic

I believe that it would be possible, by a sufficiently determined person, to locate possible hangouts on the Web of computer savvy persons, but I don't think any activity past monitoring would be possible. Nevertheless, such activities would be highly useful, for one can determine new techniques for computer crime.
Gregory Baker
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Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 12:46:48 -0500
From: "Antonio A. Rucci"
Subject: Re: OSPro-L April 97 #2

Gentlemen,

William Dubay brought up some interesting, and continuously preplexing questions regarding intelligence activities and US Intelligence collection efforts, which I would like to address:
>Re: OSPro-L April 97 #1, William Dubay:
> The grey area appears to me to be the defense contractors who are
>nowadays quasi-government in some respects. Is it "legal" for your personnel
>to monitor internet chat rooms or newsgroups in order to gain some form of I
>& W (Indications and Warning)?

Since William specifically brings to light the concerns of Army Intelligence and INSCOM, I will focus my response in that direction. AR381-10 is the Army's Intelligence Oversight regulation which breaks down what we "can" legally do as part of our investigations. I emphasize what we CAN do, simply because that is what the regulation does for us and our investigators. Too many people think Intelligence Oversight is a hinderance and does not ALLOW us to do ANYthing as part of our investigations. I would argue that point until the walls came down. Sure, it is a bit of "work" to get legal approval to get procedure-approval at all levels, but what approval doesn't take work, huh?
381-10 breaks our ABILITIES down into 15 seperate "procedures"...or categories. I know that, to some, I am preaching to the choir, but it surprises me more often than not, how many "Intelligence Professionals" look at 381-10 as a hinderance, rather than a blessing. Folks...it was written to keep you and I out of jail.
William brings up a GOOD point in the above CLIPPED TEXT. Government contractors DO fall under the umbrella, of a government employee, once they pick up the contract...they are, however, ALWAYS US PERSONS...period. Even if a foreign owned corporation or company wins a contract...and they DO, we treat them as US persons from that moment on. Do they gain more rights? Yes. Are we limited in what we can do to monitor their activities? Only if you look at it from the perspective that we have to go through more steps in order to obtain approval.
As far as monitoring IRC/AOL channels... Sure, they are Open Sources of information...and just about EVERYone can obtain access to that information. I would caution you though, as to your INTENT. Are you intentionally deceiving someone by "CLOAKING", or hiding your Email address, your DNS, or your True name or position? I would submit to you that if your intention was to deceive another user into thinking you are someone other than who you truely are, you would be subject to investigation under AR381-10, PROCDEURE 15, Questionable Activities.
>Re: OSPro-L April 97 #2, Richard Forno:
>Another devils advocate question: What if the topic of [a] chat room (hosted
>on a chat server anywhere in the world) deals with international terrorist
>actions against the United States? Does the CIA have jurisdiction since this
>is an OCONUS issue? Or does the FBI handle it as the lead law enforcement
>agency for acts of terrorism in CONUS?
>
>We definately have to sort the legal definitions out.

I would submit to you that there would more-than-likely be a JOINT investigation between both agencies, and might even turn into a Bilatteral investigation with the government which has jurisdiction over the suspected individual. I will tell you from personal experience though...it is very difficult to get cooperation from another agency unless they have something tangible to gain. (just my opinion)
>Another issue is this: What is to stop a CIA officer from monitoring any AOL
>chat room or IRC channel from home? How will he be detected? And, if his
>monitoring (while at home and not on government
>time/premises/equipment/orders) of an IRC topic of interest provides him good
>intel information, can he legally use this information in his case? I would
>argue yes, as IRC/chat rooms are, in my opinion, an open source medium.
>

Just my 2-cents-worth folks... MM opinions and or responses do NOT neccessarily reflect the official opinions of USAI, INSCOM, DoD or any other intelligence agency.
ANTONIO A. RUCCI

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OSPro-L April 1997 #3
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